My Little Brake Problem

[turbofrog]

Some have been wondering what happened to my brakes while at the last track day (HPDE) during the month of May at Portland International Raceway; I'll just post some pictures to get the hype out of the way

Left Caliper
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/turbofrog/CIMG0063.jpg

Right Caliper
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/turbofrog/CIMG0064.jpg

Left Brake Pads
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/turbofrog/CIMG0057.jpg

Right Brake pads
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/turbofrog/CIMG0054.jpg

Rotors
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/turbofrog/CIMG0051.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f81/turbofrog/CIMG0053.jpg

For those that don't know PIR is a flat coarse with no bank in the turns, if your car can flat out hall ass down the straights you will need to seriously power on the brakes when coming into the chicane, turn 4, 7, 10 and 12. Which really does not give you much time to cool your brakes. The brake pads I was using are the Carbo Tech http://www.ctbrakes.com/products.html XP8 pads on the front and the OEM pads on the rear. The front pads had about 70% life left and the rear had 5% life left (Yes I said 5% Muhahahahha), so this day I went down to practice souly my entry speeds into the corners, the draw back to entering a corner right is that you exit with alot more speed; which in turn means you will have more speed coming into your next braking point. Here is where the problem lied with that day, LMAO.

So there was a great combination for failure about to happen, here is the list:

1. Still a Newb at HPDE (5 events only)
2. Four 30 minute sessions
3. Calipers are used for daily driving
4. Same Calipers are used for track events
5. Dodge used Phenolic piston's
6. Track rated brake pads don't like Phenolic piston's
7. Brake pedal fade might not always be.........
8. Was that the 500 marker O' shiite hit the brakes
9. Forgot that my rear pads were at 5%
10. Was having a G Day out doing the FYC on the track

All this after 4 sessions on the very last lap my brakes decided that it was to teach froggy a lesson. Did I poop myself; "YES". So what did we learn to pass on to others:

1. Brembo $2000.00 or StopTech $1500.00 4 piston calipers (Daaaaaamn, ouch)

2. Or if you can afford it try having a second set of calipers with special piston inserts made by company named Die Molding in NY http://www.diemolding.com/. I have contacted them and asked for help, they are the makers of the original Phenolic pistons for Dodge and they have been able to cross the 57mm Phenolic piston with one that has a steel cap. Some machining will have to be done by them to fit the dust boot.

3. Don't spend alot of money on the brake rotors OEM or equivalents is all that is needed for a day at the track. When speaking to Olympic Brake Supply, Carbo Tech and other racers from the community it is a waste to spend the extra for all the fancy add ons which amount to nothing at the track. Simple OEM or equivalents will do. Make sure they are in specs prior to going to the track, it in not a good idea to bring rotor that have been turned down do to warping problems, they will definately warp faster on the track.

4. Go to the track with good brake pads, I have enjoyed driving on my Carbo Tech XP8's for a while know, they are noisy but you stop on a dime. When looking for a good track pad find one that has an extra thick backing plate (metal plate that contacts the brake piston) I found through Mike Jr. at Carbo Tech a 8mm thick backing plate is standard on most racing brake pad set up's. If you look at the pics above those backing plates are 6mm thick and were bent by the combination of heat and a single piston caliper.

5. Have an extra set of brake pads and rotors handy when going to the track, it is best to have a track day set up and a daily driver set up so you won't be left stranded at the track.

6. Brake Cooling..... Well there are no aftermarket easy install stuff for our cars, so you will have to do some research on making your own setup. You could do a couple of hot laps and a couple cool downs each sessions..... Or.....

7. If you are a first timer at the track come and enjoy yourself, most likely if you have prepared your brakes with good fluid, I use ATE Super Blue Racing Fluid http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/ate/ate_superblue_fluid.jsp, along with + 50% material on your brake pads and good rotors, you should have one fun day at the track. I was pushing the limits brakes this track day, the first time out you will not meet the conditions that I was pushing for.

I'm sure I left alot out so ask away and I'll try to keep up with any question or pass on any info that I have received, and most importantly what you see and read is my experience with what parts I have been using. Hopefully other peeps will chime in on there experiences with there brake parts to answer any other questons about other products you wish to use.

[turbofrog]

I asked for Cindi Lux http://www.cindilux.com/ help and she was able to get this reply for me:

Cindi,

If his calipers and pads look like that, what do his rotors look like?

If this guy is going to track his car, the first and best solution is to buy a good 4-piston caliper and 328mm rotor set-up. StopTech sells a great kit for somewhere around $1500, Brembo has one for $2000. Both of those kits work with the stock brake system, unfortunately, neither of them will clear the stock wheels. Hopefully your buddy wants to run something aftermarket, perhaps with a set of Kumhos? I would avoid the Wilwood caliper kits and the StopTech 2-piston caliper kits. I haven't heard a lot of good things about those.

If he is only going to occasionally track the car, there are a few things that will help his current situation. First is brake ducting of some sort. There isn't a lot of room to run them in the car, but if he can pull air from the front and direct it at the inside of the wheel, he'll help out the situation. A guy at work rigged up some of that foil ducting you use on dryer venting for track days and claims to have really helped the situation. Your guy will have better results if the inlets are located closer to the centerline of the car (the air isn't running sideways like it does out at the fog light holes). Next, CarboTech sells pads with a thick backing plate to resist bending. I think they make the thick backing plate in multiple pad compounds (Biskup is running XP14s with thick backing plates on his T2 car), I can't remember which compounds are kindest to the rotors. Hawk makes an HP Plus compound for the rear of the car with a thicker backing plate as well. It is a high performance street compound, perfect for the rear of a front drive race car, and again the thicker plate will reduce bending. I never found a benefit to running an aggressive rear compound in the production car because the SRT-4 is so front heavy and only becomes more front heavy under braking. Also, there is a company named DieMolding in New York that makes steel capped pistons for the caliper. This will better protect the piston surface as it gets beat up by the race pads. Finally, there is no solution to protect the dust boots on the calipers, he is using aggressive pads in a track environment. Not unlike the Competition Coupe, we don't worry about the dust seals in a track environment. If the car is also a daily driver, he'll need to buy new seals often or run a second set of calipers at the track only.

[turbofrog]

I'm waiting for Die Molding to get back to me and Carbo Tech is viewing the pictures so hopefully I will be able to post feed back from them.

Also Mike Jr. from Carbo Tech suggested that I go with XP10's in the front and XP8's in the rear. He siad he has seen a trend where the SRT track guru's have been going to this set up, since he claim's that 20% of the braking is done by the rear on this car I decided to give it a try. He also stated that as my track status goes up I should move up to the XP12/14's in the front and keep the XP8's in the rear.

[MySRTfriedrice]

Wow. Thats the first time I've ever seen brakes go that bad. Looks like you'll be dropping some coin before your next track session.

[Hooligan]

did the piston actually break apart? I will have to measure the backing plates on my pads and see how thick they are. If the dust seals are cracked, that shouldnt effect the piston and seal should it? my rear seals are all cracked up from the last 3 events.

did you ever check rotor temps while you were checking tire temps?

[LittleTurboSRT]

So basicly it comes down to you being a track G?

[turbofrog]

did the piston actually break apart? I will have to measure the backing plates on my pads and see how thick they are. If the dust seals are cracked, that shouldnt effect the piston and seal should it? my rear seals are all cracked up from the last 3 events.

did you ever check rotor temps while you were checking tire temps?

The dust boots are to keep road contamination out of the pistons, so if they are cracked to the point where they are allowing road grime into pistons, you are more then likely chewing up the piston seal which will promote premature failure. Since you dual duty your calipers a simple rebuild after so many events with monitoring should take care of any problems. S&P http://www.speedandpowerdevelopment.com/SRT4-b.html has the best prices and the rebuild is real easy.

FRONT CALIPER PISTON REPAIR KIT (supersedes 5017842AA)

$38.45 Sale Price: $28.12

CONTAINS: Piston, Boot, Seal - 57mm

REAR CALIPER PISTON REPAIR KIT

$13.10 Sale Price: $9.58

CONTAINS: Piston, Boot, Seal - 36mm

I only checked tire temps; I will check rotor and caliper temps this next track day and record them. Great point to mention.

[kingj07]

wowza! too much to take in. must read again later.

j.r.:fu:

[jaymzx]

<tag>

[SRT-4aKid's Brother]

The rubber boots around my rear caliper pistons got all burnt up and fell apart after the last HPDE I did. I guess I should get the rebuild kits for the rear.

When's the caliper rebuild day at FroG's??? lol

[turbofrog]

As soon as you need to, order the kits and bring them to HPDE.

[Cindi]

It all comes down to a racing saying...."how fast to you want to go?...all depends on how much you want to spend."

These cars will certainly teach you brake conservation in the long run. Otherwise you will go broke!

Hang in there.

[thepowertowin]

When I start using my race pads, I'm going to have a set of 4 calipers sitting there ready to go, and those repair kits ready to put in the old ones so I always have some new ones sitting around ready to go. I plan on doing this same thing to some brake pads myself.

[turbofrog]

When I start using my race pads, I'm going to have a set of 4 calipers sitting there ready to go, and those repair kits ready to put in the old ones so I always have some new ones sitting around ready to go. I plan on doing this same thing to some brake pads myself.


I'll be placing an order for some rear rebuilds this week, damn road racing is gonna get expensive, LOL.

[jaymzx]

Gotta pay to play!

Hey dad is momma gonna let you buy a big brake kit?

[Plan B]

And some new rims to stuff the BBK under? :lol:

[blackbird]

I need to cross-reference some stuff on the SRT-4 to the older cars. TRW bought out Kelsey-Hayes a while back but the design is still pretty close on the Neon to the older 11" big brake components on the R/T's and other cars. Ideas of Frankeneon begin... :paranoid:

[DrmCtchr]

hey froggy i think we need to work on a few techniques next time we go out. I think we need to get you to refind that corner speed you found the day you lost your brakes into turn 4.
So here is your homework:
1)forget braking late. yes i said forget braking late.
2)Focus on the corner exit speed. By finding the magic number to be at at apex for the best exit and best run down the straight. Use really long braking areas to get the car slowed down to a speed that you suppose you can hold from trail to apex. every time you hit that corner dial in a little more speed at turn in/trail. Until you notice a disadvantagious change in car attitude.
3)You want the entry speed at apex to be such that you dont have to go to gas before apex. AND give you the best look down the track while using ALL the surface available to you.

Repeat this incessantly until it's all automatic

4) Once you get this speed figured out you are good THEN go back to late braking. And then focus getting the car to the speed you have learned is the max you can hold at apex.

Sure late braking feels great ( when its working right ) BUT it is not, by any stretch, what one should practice first. Now that you have learned it ( and the consequences ) you can pack it away as a great tool to use later when 10ths of seconds matter (or when ronin or planb or someone is in braking in front of you). Now you want to practice brake management and get the limits worked out from corner apex to braking of the next corner.

You said it yourself if you hold more speed in the corner then your exit is faster and your straights end up faster at braking for the next corner. You have to find that point where you are carrying barely enough traction to safely hold your line... without a lot of complaints from the tires.

Once you get that then you can start crunching in your braking zone. You get more time from hitting your marks getting back to power as quickly and as close as possible to apex with the least amount of slowing down... than you do from saving your braking till the last bloody instant and missing your marks by +8 inches =]

Any way just my 2 centavos. :pimp2:

David

[turbofrog]

Word X2 Dave thanks for the input and all should read this and take add it to your key learings to try at the next event. Woot, Woot

[Plan B]

Well that just gave me something to shoot for in two weeks! :djortiz:

[el_jefe]

You could always do what I do, and scrub speed off on the tires :lol: :dead:

[turbofrog]

OK more info to post, here is some emails that I have had with Greg:

Chris,

The 600°F rotor temperatures are within the acceptable working range for the piston material.

Over several races you may see degradation in the form of "ashing". This is a cumulative result of an exposure to extreme temperatures for extended times.

Moving to a capped piston will greatly slow this process. I would be very interested in getting used pistons returned to me for evaluation. (I could give you my UPS number to use for return)

I have checked with my contacts and have been told that the ATE Super Blue is as good as is offered.

We have run a multitude of tests with this piston material immersed at elevated temperatures in Super Blue Brake Fluid and have found no issue with compatibility.

Are the pistons you currently use / purchase green or brown in color?

I look forward to working with you.

Thanks....Greg

OK I'm sending back my used pistons to him to try to find a solution, if anyone has a green color phenolic piston PM me.

[jaymzx]

Buy a rebuild kit and send it in

[turbofrog]

One more email to post:

Chris,

I hope this email finds you tired from the celebration of victory!

Thank you for the pictures and details in your email.

I better understand your requirements and can offer the following:

Capped Ø57 without groove - $40.00 each

Capped Ø57 with dust boot groove - $45.00 each

Ship Date - 6 weeks max (Includes our shutdown)

Shipping - FOB Canastota, NY 13032


Thanks....Greg

OK for you PNW guys who do Road Racing and AutoX, I will be putting an order in soon, PM me if interested. Also they are moving there production line so this time ordering will be elongated by a few weeks.

Those who daily drive and just fart around town this upgrade is not needed, this is for the piston only, the seals and dust boots will need to be purchased seperately. I'll PM Jimmy from S&P http://www.speedandpowerdevelopment.com/ and ask him to chime in if the seals and dust boots can be purchased seperately.

[turbofrog]

Buy a rebuild kit and send it in

He wants my old damaged pistons; I have talked with him and he wants to see what a good failure looks like in person for R&D reasons.

[Hooligan]

did you tell him that the 600 degrees was after a 2 mile cool down lap and a couple more minutes in the pits before you took the temps? I would guess they get up in to 800-900 degree range during the session

[turbofrog]

Yep we discussed all the days events. Hopefully we will get back more positive input, DieMolding has really stepped up to help me (us) with the problem at hand.

[jaymzx]

I find it strange that Dale Seely and other race drivers haven't had the same problem..

[thepowertowin]

One more email to post:



OK for you PNW guys who do Road Racing and AutoX, I will be putting an order in soon, PM me if interested. Also they are moving there production line so this time ordering will be elongated by a few weeks.

Those who daily drive and just fart around town this upgrade is not needed, this is for the piston only, the seals and dust boots will need to be purchased seperately. I'll PM Jimmy from S&P http://www.speedandpowerdevelopment.com/ and ask him to chime in if the seals and dust boots can be purchased seperately.


Mopar has a piston kit which comes with the boot and seal for the srt4. for the regular neon they offer both a pistoin/boot/seal kit and just a boot/seal kit. I doubt very much that it'd work for the srt4. So it still shows to be the most cost effecient to buy the piston/boot/seal kit, but if you don't need the piston, you'll have to come up with more creative solutions to use the pistons for. Miniature ash tray? :bblz:

[Back-n-Black]

Froggy was riding his brakes like an old lady.:paranoid: Use the right pedel more and the center one less. :jeff: :jester:

But seriously that is the most f'ed up i have ever seen brakes. I have never seen the backing plate bend and damn near melt.

[thepowertowin]

you never saw what we did to the srt10 truck we drove to louisiana.

We replaced ball joints, wheel bearings, tie rod ends, brake calipers, brake rotors, tires, brake lines, and probably more. And that was after we hauled the u-haul BACK to nebraska.