white mountain runs 10.88 no nitrous

[punkrokdood]

same set up as before, just swapped out the S3 turbo for a DBB50 trim, and ran no nitrous.

http://branon.us/turbotimeslip.sized.jpg
srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247663

[SinisterSRT4]

I should see if he wants a 60 trim :rofl:

[DJ2]

was he racing an RSX or a new Civic SI? :rofl:

[SinisterSRT4]

:bs: The srt wasnt racing thats funny tho I feel sorry for the guy in the next lane

[DJ2]

no shit! the SRT was almost across the finish line when he hit the 1/8th! LOL

[punkrokdood]

yea, i noticed that... 10.8 vs 16.5 must have been a sight to see :lol:

[gudeman00]

Good god look at that reaction time

[DJ2]

Good god look at that reaction time
Good gude, look at the other one :ftard: I think he was napping! LOL

[SinisterSRT4]

Post that over on club gay sex entitled s2 srt vs cybernation turbo gayesex lmao!!

[slow4dr]

Where's the thread so I can say "I told you so"

[slow4dr]

Nevermind, in my excitement I didn't see the link was hiding under the pic.

[punkrokdood]

:lol:

I too loved this quote

The driver has nothing to do with it. It's all about the tubular manifold and round intercooler end tanks. :rofl:

[SinisterSRT4]

I dont know about all that but Ive never seen a .001 reaction time and a 1.7 60 is damn good who piloted that thing the terminator?

[punkrokdood]

I dont know about all that but Ive never seen a .001 reaction time and a 1.7 60 is damn good who piloted that thing the terminator?
nick from NRGY heads drove it :thumb:

he is VERY good, and has literally thousands of passes down the strip :yikes:

[SinisterSRT4]

Thats some tight shit

[slow4dr]

I dont know about all that but Ive never seen a .001 reaction time and a 1.7 60 is damn good who piloted that thing the terminator?


1.7 seems to be the norm anymore especially with 26" slicks.

I have pulled one perfect light and a few sub .010's in the GVR4 but I suck at the tree in the SRT.

[SinisterSRT4]

1.7 seems to be the norm anymore especially with 26" slicks.

I have pulled one perfect light and a few sub .010's in the GVR4 but I suck at the tree in the SRT.What color is your gvr4? did you ever hang with a turbo is300? my buddies charged stang got pwnt hard last year or the year before by a insanely fast gvr4 and he wants a rematch but we never found the guy again.

[slow4dr]

What color is your gvr4? did you ever hang with a turbo is300? my buddies charged stang got pwnt hard last year or the year before by a insanely fast gvr4 and he wants a rematch but we never found the guy again.


Mine was white. If the car your buddy raced was white and was at the "street races" I know who he was. His name is Jason also and he is a fucking retard. :lol: There is a vid somewhere of his car beating a 911 turbo at carlsbad but he only ran a mid 13 at like 97 mph. :ftard: I ran him a couple times at Palmdale and he barely got into the 14's.

I don't have mine anymore but I am sure I could get the guy who has it now would let me borrow it for a race. :jester:

[SinisterSRT4]

Nope not him but im sure he wants to kill any vr4 he can find since that was his only loss. its 98gt with a paxton novi 2000 ...The vr4 swore up and down it was stock so did like 5 other people and the stang runs mid to low 12's and the vr4 beat him by like 4 cars.

[punkrokdood]

^^^ sounds like the driver mod :dunno:

[slow4dr]

Nope not him but im sure he wants to kill any vr4 he can find since that was his only loss. its 98gt with a paxton novi 2000 ...The vr4 swore up and down it was stock so did like 5 other people and the stang runs mid to low 12's and the vr4 beat him by like 4 cars.

^^^ sounds like the driver mod :dunno:

My car was deadly on the street. I raced a few much faster/quicker slicked down V8's and they still couldn't hang on the street.

[SinisterSRT4]

^^^ sounds like the driver mod :dunno:yeah the stang wouldnt hook up for shit the vr4 almost wheelied the launch I had to scrape my jaw off the floor with a spatula it was a hell of a site to see.

[slow4dr]

yeah the stang wouldnt hook up for shit the vr4 almost wheelied the launch I had to scrape my jaw off the floor with a spatula it was a hell of a site to see.


The vid in my sig at the other site is a 1.74 60 ft with completely stock suspension and 40 psi in H rated 215/65/15 street tires.

[Jakencub]

I ant wait ot get my car back ont he road...its been "under construction" since August 28, 2005 (moeny adn took time to get some things in we wanted, aka ported head by AGP, 62mm Combo from Fuilly Built (although we sent him our IM and got it back in like a week, but Psifi really butchered it when they did their "free port and polish" when they installed the crappy GTS-61 two years ago), SCE Headgasket (still waiting ont he replacement from XtremeBoost, that is right now holding up our engine builder).

Now that the DBB 50 is in the 10's, we are hoping to be the first non-DBB 50 trim in the 10's.

But maybe not, as Ben from AGP said earlier, we would need a tubular manifold and round IC endtanks, lol.

[slow4dr]

Now that the DBB 50 is in the 10's, we are hoping to be the first non-DBB 50 trim in the 10's.

I don't see the DBB making any difference what so ever. Maybe on street driving but not in a drag race.

But maybe not, as Ben from AGP said earlier, we would need a tubular manifold and round IC endtanks, lol.

:rofl:

[Jakencub]

I don't see the DBB making any difference what so ever. Maybe on street driving but not in a drag race.



:rofl:
Man, I never should have gotten rid of the Psi-fi IC, it had the round endtanks....and come to think of it, the manifold was alsoa tubular style as well.... damn, I geuss Psi-fi had a good turbo setup anyway....:gcry:



:3stooges:

What the hell am I saying...the turbo was a piece of crap.... I ran a 117 mph pass at 24 psi on their "bigger and better turbo" and ran a 113mph on the 50 trim. Hell, when we got the car back from Psi-fi, it was hittin 24.7 psi on pump gas.....how in the hell is that a safe tune? esp. when we had no way to monitor the A/F's at the time. I am so glad we have AGP on the car now....the only kicker being Psi-Fi is no longer in business so we can't go out and run a 10 sec pass and rub it in their faces....:angryfire

[DJ2]

I ant wait ot get my car back ont he road...its been "under construction" since August 28, 2005 (moeny adn took time to get some things in we wanted, aka ported head by AGP, 62mm Combo from Fuilly Built (although we sent him our IM and got it back in like a week, but Psifi really butchered it when they did their "free port and polish" when they installed the crappy GTS-61 two years ago), SCE Headgasket (still waiting ont he replacement from XtremeBoost, that is right now holding up our engine builder).

Now that the DBB 50 is in the 10's, we are hoping to be the first non-DBB 50 trim in the 10's.

But maybe not, as Ben from AGP said earlier, we would need a tubular manifold and round IC endtanks, lol.


I was going to correct all of your spelling/grammar/typos.. but fuck it, that's too much work.


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/DJ_2/addressograph_illustratively.jpg

[slow4dr]

Man, I never should have gotten rid of the Psi-fi IC, it had the round endtanks....and come to think of it, the manifold was alsoa tubular style as well.... damn, I geuss Psi-fi had a good turbo setup anyway....:gcry:



:3stooges:

What the hell am I saying...the turbo was a piece of crap.... I ran a 117 mph pass at 24 psi on their "bigger and better turbo" and ran a 113mph on the 50 trim. Hell, when we got the car back from Psi-fi, it was hittin 24.7 psi on pump gas.....how in the hell is that a safe tune? esp. when we had no way to monitor the A/F's at the time. I am so glad we have AGP on the car now....the only kicker being Psi-Fi is no longer in business so we can't go out and run a 10 sec pass and rub it in their faces....:angryfire

I am sure they still browse the boards and I am sure they will know when you guys bust out a 10. The good thing now is they can't delete threads. :lol:

25 psi on pump = :hanged:

Psi-Fi.............Where theory is greater than reality

[The-Violator]

hahaha just saw this..

What the hell are all the S3 Nut swingers gonna brag about now?!?!?

[punkrokdood]

hahaha just saw this..

What the hell are all the S3 Nut swingers gonna brag about now?!?!?
S3 was still first :deal: :rofl:

[blackbird]

S3 was still first :deal: :rofl:
And a Focus was into the 10's before that S3 Neon. :ftard: :lol:

[slow4dr]

And a Focus was into the 10's before that S3 Neon. :ftard: :lol:


:bs: Without 8 cylinders

[blackbird]

R/T :.209
60 :1.986
1/4 :10.95
MPH :137.46

Oh yeah, on drag radials.

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156705

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51726

http://www.focus-power.com/view.php?showme=Home

:thumb:

[slow4dr]

R/T :.209
60 :1.986
1/4 :10.95
MPH :137.46

Oh yeah, on drag radials.

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156705

http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51726

http://www.focus-power.com/view.php?showme=Home

:thumb:


:bs: without video

[MChat]

25 psi on pump = :hanged:


Not necessarily. WhiteMnt's car made 400whp on 91 octane PUMP gas at 28psi w/ the S3R turbo... Water Injection and Timing control are the key.


I plan on running ~28psi on the GT35R, revving out to 7500 rpm (thanks to the new AEM EMS), using water/methanol injection and pulling the timing back to a reasonable level. I'm hoping for mid 500's on pump gas. :evil2:


As for Nick's passes in WhiteMnt's car, it should be noted that he was launching without the 2-step, meaning that no boost could be made off the line, hence the 1.7 60's. Normally that car sees mid 1.6's with Nick driving, which would have put it right at a 10.6 on just the turbo. And probably down in the 10.2-10.3 range on the 50shot.

[punkrokdood]

^^^ that's crazy mike...

although isn't methanol considered fuel???:yikes:


I can't wait to see your car in action again... i only saw what, 2 passes that time???

[slow4dr]

Not necessarily. WhiteMnt's car made 400whp on 91 octane PUMP gas at 28psi w/ the S3R turbo... Water Injection and Timing control are the key.

I was talking about pump only NO "additives".

Yes timing is "key" and you can run more of it with less boost which will usually equal more power.

[MChat]

although isn't methanol considered fuel???:yikes:


Methanol is fuel, and it has a much, much higer octane rating than pump gas does. Between that and the water, the effective octane rating is raised probably 8-10 points (so 99-101 octane on 91 pump gas or 117-119 on the Sunnoco GT+ racing fuel I use at the track). Between the raised octane and having finer control over the ignition timing, I should be safe. My goal is to run 10's on pump gas. :thumb:



I can't wait to see your car in action again... i only saw what, 2 passes that time???

Something like that, I don't even remember what I ran that day. :ftard: I can't wait to get it all back together. I'm adding a Darrell Cox Racing automatic transmission to the mix, going for bigger cams (18/16 combo) and stepping up to 10" slicks.

[slow4dr]

I plan on running ~28psi on the GT35R, revving out to 7500 rpm (thanks to the new AEM EMS), using water/methanol injection and pulling the timing back to a reasonable level. I'm hoping for mid 500's on pump gas. :evil2:


You will not make tha kind of WHP on 91 pump without some type of "additive". If you use an "additive" then it shouldn' be cosidered a "pump gas" number.

[punkrokdood]

10's on pump would be crazy, methanol or not :lol:

[slow4dr]

Something like that, I don't even remember what I ran that day. :ftard: I can't wait to get it all back together. I'm adding a Darrell Cox Racing automatic transmission to the mix, going for bigger cams (18/16 combo) and stepping up to 10" slicks.


:thumb: I have been wanting to see a car at your caliber running one of the auto's.

[MChat]

Yes timing is "key" and you can run more of it with less boost which will usually equal more power.

There is a point of diminishing returns, yes. The trick is in finding that line.

I was messing around on the dyno w/ pump gas tuning the ignition using the MSD Programmable, pulling the timing back to safe levels in case of a boost spike. But because the bottom end was stock, I had no intentions of running that much boost on the street.

When I was finished, it made 465whp on 28psi w/ pump gas, 91 octane w/ no timing issues. That's about 20whp less than it made at the same boost on race gas. At 28psi I was pulling 8 degrees of timing (IIRC) using the MSD, at 30psi (the max the MSD would read), I pulled as much timing as the MSD would allow (25 degrees), just to be overly safe... even then it still made 430whp.. :lol:

At 22psi, I had the MSD set to pull no timing. The MSD Timing Map was then a straight line from 0 deg @ 22psi to 8 deg @ 28psi (so 4 deg at 25psi). With it set like that it made ~425whp @ 24psi, which is what I ran on the street.

[uberingram]

You will not make tha kind of WHP on 91 pump without some type of "additive". If you use an "additive" then it shouldn' be cosidered a "pump gas" number.
Splitting hairs IMO but to each their own. :)

[MChat]

You will not make tha kind of WHP on 91 pump without some type of "additive". If you use an "additive" then it shouldn' be cosidered a "pump gas" number.

I will be running Water/Methanol injection on this, no "octane booster" from a bottle though.

Running Water/Methanol on the street costs me about $4 per month (Compared to gas now costing ~$120 month). Considering current fuel rates... that's cheap. Water/Methanol is such an integral part of the tuning that I will NOT run my car without it, ever. So call it what you want, it's still pump gas to me.

[slow4dr]

There is a point of diminishing returns, yes. The trick is in finding that line.

I was messing around on the dyno w/ pump gas tuning the ignition using the MSD Programmable, pulling the timing back to safe levels in case of a boost spike. But because the bottom end was stock, I had no intentions of running that much boost on the street.

When I was finished, it made 465whp on 28psi w/ pump gas, 91 octane w/ no timing issues. That's about 20whp less than it made at the same boost on race gas. At 28psi I was pulling 8 degrees of timing (IIRC) using the MSD, at 30psi (the max the MSD would read), I pulled as much timing as the MSD would allow (25 degrees), just to be overly safe... even then it still made 430whp.. :lol:

At 22psi, I had the MSD set to pull no timing. The MSD Timing Map was then a straight line from 0 deg @ 22psi to 8 deg @ 28psi (so 4 deg at 25psi). With it set like that it made ~425whp @ 24psi, which is what I ran on the street.

Those are great numbers but is it with meth injection?

[MChat]

Those are great numbers but is it with meth injection?
Of course :lol:

I've had WI on my car since before the big turbo upgrade.

[slow4dr]

Of course :lol:

I've had WI on my car since before the big turbo upgrade.


I just don't see how that is pump gas then.

[MChat]

I just don't see how that is pump gas then.

It's pump gas because that's where I buy the fuel. From the typical gas station thats on just about on every corner in this town. 91octane from the pump.

[slow4dr]

It's pump gas because that's where I buy the fuel. From the typical gas station thats on just about on every corner in this town. 91octane from the pump.


A N20 user could say the same thing.

[SinisterSRT4]

A N20 user could say the same thing.
:owned: here we go again....

[punkrokdood]

A N20 user could say the same thing.
i go back and forth on it....

i think i'm gonna get it out of spite now
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :banned:

[slow4dr]

This guy gets all the respect from me.

Here is the general post I had submitted to other forums:

"Recipe:

AGP "Dre-Spec" 50trim w/ AGP tubular exh. manifold
Bone Stock 1g head
8.5:1 ross/eagle 6bolt block 2.0l
Magnus sheetmetal Intake
HKS 272s, degreed to my liking
Custom fuel system, -8an lines, Walbro255hiflow, ND720cc @ 96%duty.
Custom made 3.5" 02housing-turbo back
"Powered by Home Depot" intake
28" Spearco FMIC
93 octane only (got the receipt from last night and my buddy Thuran who saw me pump good ole' Mobil 93octane)
Boost dropping down to 26psi by 7500rpm
AEM EMS v.94 tuned to the bone by yours truely
No water injection (actually selling the kit), no additives.
Special spark plugs
MSD Dis2, stock coils and ignitor.

http://www.twingles.com/ideck/engine/503whp441torqueDynoAGPt3t4.jpg

[punkrokdood]

too bad we can't get 93 octane :gcry:

[MChat]

A N20 user could say the same thing.

The difference is Nitrous is a Power Adder. Water Injection is not.

Water injection simply allows you to run more timing and/or boost by reducing the of the temperature of the intake air and increasing the effective octane of the air/fuel mixture. The increase in power seen using water injection is the result of being able to run more boost and/or more timing without detonation; it has an indirect effect on power. If you continue adding more water, you will kill the combustion process and the engine will make LESS power.

Nitrous systems add power by providing more oxygen and fuel to the combustion. The increase in power seen using a nitrous system is a direct result of the extra oxygen and fuel injected by the system; it has a direct effect on power. if you continue adding more nitrous and fuel, you will make MORE power, that is until you reach the limits of the engine and melt it down.

[MChat]

Also another difference is that Water/Methanol injection is street legal. Nitrous is not.

No matter what, the bottom line is this:

I fill my car at the normal gas station, using the premium gas (91 oct) from the pump that is available to the masses. Therefor it is PUMP gas that I run in my car.

[slow4dr]

The difference is Nitrous is a Power Adder. Water Injection is not.

Pretty much every major drag racing sanctioning body disagress with that.

I fill my car at the normal gas station, using the premium gas (91 oct) from the pump that is available to the masses. Therefor it is PUMP gas that I run in my car.


I can fill up at the pump then run some other additive and still consider it pump. Or does it only count when it's mixed before it enters the motor?

If I put some C16 in a seperate tank & fuel system and then filled up the regular tank with pump I am still on pump. :ftard:

[blackbird]

Water injection or even alky injection may not directly "add power" like nitrous, but in many types of racing classes they consider it a power adder. I'd personally care less about trying to get the biggest numbers out of my car on pump and go for what's safest. I've got nothing to prove on pump gas, although putting down a big number is nice. You just can't expect a lot of people in to drag racing to consider it just pump gas. The rule books say otherwise.

[blackbird]

Can we talk about "stock turbo's" that have been ported, polished, clipped, and have a bigger compressor wheel now. :lol:

[slow4dr]

Can we talk about "stock turbo's" that have been ported, polished, clipped, and have a bigger compressor wheel now. :lol:


Or whether it's a neon or not?

[punkrokdood]

Pretty much every major drag racing sanctioning body disagress with that.




I can fill up at the pump then run some other additive and still consider it pump. Or does it only count when it's mixed before it enters the motor?

If I put some C16 in a seperate tank & fuel system and then filled up the regular tank with pump I am still on pump. :ftard:
what if its just water? its not adding ANY type of fuel, and it remains chemically unchanged. it goes in as water, comes out the exhaust as water. therefore, you're not using it to add fuel of any sort, it is however cooling the intake temps, and helping to avoid detonation, but nothing more.

[blackbird]

what if its just water? its not adding ANY type of fuel, and it remains chemically unchanged. it goes in as water, comes out the exhaust as water. therefore, you're not using it to add fuel of any sort, it is however cooling the intake temps, and helping to avoid detonation, but nothing more.
Still considered a "power adder" according to the rules. Maybe one of the reasons you don't see any of the really big drag racing teams running it.

[MChat]

Show me the rule that says Water Injection is a "Power Adder."

If they considered Water Injection a power adder then they'd have to consider race gas and intercoolers "power adders" as well.

The NHRA does not consider water injection a power adder. Power adders are defined as:

1. Superchargers
2. Turbochargers
3. Nitrous Systems.

[MChat]

Pretty much every major drag racing sanctioning body disagress with that.




I can fill up at the pump then run some other additive and still consider it pump. Or does it only count when it's mixed before it enters the motor?

If I put some C16 in a seperate tank & fuel system and then filled up the regular tank with pump I am still on pump. :ftard:

What fuel is being injected by the fuel injectors? The pump fuel, the race gas or a mix?

If only the pump gas is being injected by the fuel injectors then it is pump gas. If it is a mix or race gas then it is race gas.

[punkrokdood]

the only reason i even consider it is for a safety net on the crap gas in cali. I'm not a pro drag racer, so i could have as many power adders as i want. for my purposes i'd most likely only run water since i'm not trying to use it to make big power, and the water is easily justifiable from a cost perspective

[MChat]

Still considered a "power adder" according to the rules. Maybe one of the reasons you don't see any of the really big drag racing teams running it.

The reason you don't see any of the big drag racing teams running water injection is because they are already running METHANOL. Due to the properties of methanol, just injecting it into the air stream cools the air/fuel charge much more than could be accomplished with water injection. AND methanol already has a significantly higher octane rating so adding water into the mix would do nothing. The top drag teams don't use water injection because it won't work on their setups.

[blackbird]

That's a small fact, but not all racing series run methanol. And there's also the fact that water takes the space up of fuel and air, and when running race gas the benefits don't outweigh that.

[DJ2]

If a turbocharger is considered a power adder then who gives a fuck if you have w/i :ftard:

I know the argument is "pump gas" but what is pump gas? I can go to a shell station here in town and buy 101 out of the same pump that I get 87 and 91 out of... if that is pump gas then I can run that without w/i, but it has the same effect as running w/i. It allows me to run higher boost without detonation and less timing pulled.


Now how about that neon/srt4 argument?

[MChat]

If a turbocharger is considered a power adder then who gives a fuck if you have w/i :ftard:

I know the argument is "pump gas" but what is pump gas? I can go to a shell station here in town and buy 101 out of the same pump that I get 87 and 91 out of... if that is pump gas then I can run that without w/i, but it has the same effect as running w/i. It allows me to run higher boost without detonation and less timing pulled.


Now how about that neon/srt4 argument?

The only thing about 101 from the pump is that not all gas stations have it (in fact, very few do, I know of 3 in the Phoenix area). 91 (AZ and CA, 93 just about everywhere else) is available at 99.9% of the gas stations.

[blackbird]

There will always be people who find something to complain or hit you on no matter what you do. Since I'm not competing nationally I could care less what's on my car as long as it works. But I also do realize that others may not agree with some modifications and what falls under "stock", "pump gas", etc.

[DJ2]

I have a "stock" turbo off a Kenworth... is that stock? :lol:

[MChat]

That's a small fact, but not all racing series run methanol. And there's also the fact that water takes the space up of fuel and air, and when running race gas the benefits don't outweigh that.

True, there is also a difference between a trailered in drag only race car vs a car that gets driven on the street.

Water injection allows me to run more HP on the street every day than someone running without WI. Sure you can run 101 octane from those rare gas stations that offer it, at $6+ a gallon (which would cost me roughly $250/ month to do), or you can use Water Injection, run the same HP, for roughly half of what it would cost on 101.

[DJ2]

101 is still $4.50 / gal here :)

[punkrokdood]

101 is still $4.50 / gal here :)
that's only 91 cents more than 91 octane here:ftard:

[blackbird]

http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2006/rules/ClassRegulations.pdf

Dial-up sucks and I just finished downloading the new '06 rules. If you do a search (use "injection" and not "water injection") a lot of the classes say no methanol (or liquid 'fuel') injection. Water would be OK for those, but many other classes say no injection of any liquids into the intake path or exhaust.

That's what some will complain about. But unless you're trying to compete in those classes it doesn't matter too much. If it were me I'd still say pump gas with water injection just to avoid arguments. Or just tell them it's a stock turbo. :lol:

[punkrokdood]

http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2006/rules/ClassRegulations.pdf

Dial-up sucks and I just finished downloading the new '06 rules. If you do a search (use "injection" and not "water injection") a lot of the classes say no methanol (or liquid 'fuel') injection. Water would be OK for those, but many other classes say no injection of any liquids into the intake path or exhaust.

That's what some will complain about. But unless you're trying to compete in those classes it doesn't matter too much. If it were me I'd still say pump gas with water injection just to avoid arguments. Or just tell them it's a stock turbo. :lol:
put simply...

"so what mods do you have?"
"stage2"
"that's it?"
"pretty much, and a few bolt ons"

that is my answer from here on out :thumb:

[slow4dr]

what if its just water? its not adding ANY type of fuel, and it remains chemically unchanged. it goes in as water, comes out the exhaust as water. therefore, you're not using it to add fuel of any sort, it is however cooling the intake temps, and helping to avoid detonation, but nothing more.

It wouldn't change the octane rating so of course the power increase wouldn't be as signifigant(sp).

[svt2srt4]

significant*?

[punkrokdood]

It wouldn't change the octane rating so of course the power increase wouldn't be as signifigant(sp).
it would slow the combustion (not to the degree meth would) which is what higher octane does, therefore "effectively" you raised the octane

[kenskiv]

same set up as before, just swapped out the S3 turbo for a DBB50 trim, and ran no nitrous.

http://branon.us/turbotimeslip.sized.jpg
srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247663

Pfft! Neon owners...Bunch of:leghumper


















:rofl:

[blackbird]

Water shouldn't have much of an effect on the rate of combustion. What it does is absorb heat, which can help bring detonation under control. On higher compression engines or cars running big turbo's that run high cylinder pressures, the water won't compress and it takes up space of oxygen that you could burn. That's why I'd always prefer to run as big and as efficient intercooler setup I can before using water injection. Less things to fail and more consistent, especially if you ever rely on the W/I system to also deliver fuel (methanol/alky) to keep the motor alive. That's not to say W/I isn't going to work but it does have some down sides.

Speaking of a little bit how W/I works, it's 96°+ outside right now so it's finally time for me to climb up on the roof and clean out the swap cooler. :thumb:

[punkrokdood]

hmmm... i could have sworn the water slowed combustion too... oh well

[slow4dr]

significant*?


Yep, you're right..............:furious3:

[blackbird]

hmmm... i could have sworn the water slowed combustion too... oh well
I remember reading this on their site long ago. Lots of graphs and techno, mumbo-jumbo. :lol:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/info/documents/turbowhitepaper/waterinjection.htm

It does have some small effect on the speed of the flame front in the combustion process, but that's not its biggest benefit and how it works. You'll notice it mentioned about optimal amounts and small percentage of water injected. If you do run more water than needed, like is the case on many street cars, it does take up space of oxygen. You gain a little bit from the cooler charge helping density pre-combustion chamber, but on really high cylinder pressures it make a more significant difference. But that's another thing that has been argued for years.

[slow4dr]

Eric's explanation > me

[punkrokdood]

well, i knew it wasn't the BIGGEST benefit, but it was one of them...

i DO know that corky bell doesn't care for water injection, and he knows a little more about turbo systems than i do :lol: :ftard:

[blackbird]

i DO know that corky bell doesn't care for water injection, and he knows a little more about turbo systems than i do :lol: :ftard:
He's knows a lot from experience but also gives his opinions a lot that over the years since his book was published have been disproven. But he still knows more than I do and most people out there. And I fully agree with him on W/I if there's an intercooler that will do the same job.

And for intercoolers, as Gus Mahon (http://home.earthlink.net/~turbogus/index.html) used to like quoting, the intercooler's too big when you can't close the hood.

[MChat]

http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2006/rules/ClassRegulations.pdf

Dial-up sucks and I just finished downloading the new '06 rules. If you do a search (use "injection" and not "water injection") a lot of the classes say no methanol (or liquid 'fuel') injection. Water would be OK for those, but many other classes say no injection of any liquids into the intake path or exhaust.

That's what some will complain about. But unless you're trying to compete in those classes it doesn't matter too much. If it were me I'd still say pump gas with water injection just to avoid arguments. Or just tell them it's a stock turbo. :lol:

There are two places:

Pump or racing gasoline only. Injection of any other fuel prohibited,
i.e., methanol injection.

This one *could* be a problem, depending on how the governing body would rule. I would argue that the methanol injected is in such small amounts as to not provide any significant increase in power directly, it is mainly used for its cooling properties.

And if the powers that be decided that methanol was not allowed, I'd simply tune my car for using 100% water.


Injection of any liquid, gas, or any other
substance into the inlet or exhaust housing is prohibited.

This is speaking directly about superchargers and/or turbochargers. Basically they are prohibiting the injection of anything before the inlet of the super/turbocharger and prohibiting injecting anything into the exhaust housing (Anti-lag systems).


ALSO, nothing in those regulations stated that "Water/Methanol Injection is considered a 'Power Adder'". Which is what the original argument was ;)

[MChat]

And I fully agree with him on W/I if there's an intercooler that will do the same job.

Hmmm, how do you use Ambient tempurature air to cool the air-charge to BELOW Ambient tempurature?

When I dyno'd my car last summer, on the hottest day of the year, the ambient tempurature was 116 degrees. The air charge coming out of the intercooler was 120 degrees (turbo pushing @ 28psi). The air charge after the water injection was 82 degrees. You show me an intercooler/aftercooler that can drop the tempurature to 34 degrees below ambient tempurature without using ice or an Water/N2O/CO2 sprayer on the intercooler and I'll use it.

The tracks don't like water intercooler sprayers because they drip water on the track. N2O/CO2 sprayers aren't that usefull on a daily driven street car. Likewise using ice in a water to air aftercooler isn't usefull on a daily driven street car.

Water Injection IS usefull on a daily driven street car and I typically use less than 2 gallons per month split between the street and the track (probably 1 gallon per month for the street, 1 gallon per month for the strip), even with some realatively spirited street driving. I have a 7 quart tank which I top off once a week (usually it's about 1/2 full still); I usually get gas and check my oil more often than that, so "maintenance" is not an issue.

It comes on when I need it and stays off the rest of the time. I don't have any air-tanks that need filled (at $20-40 a pop no less); nor do I have to worry about getting pulled over and having the cop see that I'm using nitrous (or a bottle that might look like nitrous to an ignorant cop) on the street.

[MChat]

Water shouldn't have much of an effect on the rate of combustion.

I beg to differ. Water is nature's flame retardant. If you get wood wet, is it not harder to ignite? The same is true of gasoline.

Vaporized water also acts to slow down the burn rate of the fuel, thereby effectively raising the octane level. I'm sure if I dug hard enough I could come up with the physics formulas that would show the effects of vaporized water in the air-fuel mixture.

Sure if you tried to mix gas and water together in a container, you'd see the gas and water separate, with the gas being on top. However that is in it's liquid form. Through the injectors (both the fuel injectors and the water injection injector) the two liquids are atomized into a gaseous state. In this state, the air, fuel and water molecules are mixed into a single gas. Sure, if you let the mixture sit, the water and fuel will condense and separate from the air and from each other, however during the engine cycle there is not enough time given for this to happen.

[slow4dr]

ALSO, nothing in those regulations stated that "Water/Methanol Injection is considered a 'Power Adder'". Which is what the original argument was ;)

Maybe my terminology and what is stated in most rule books was off but I just meant that most sanctioning body's don't allow it especially if pump gas is somewhere attached to the class name.

[hozay09]

Water shouldn't have much of an effect on the rate of combustion. What it does is absorb heat, which can help bring detonation under control. On higher compression engines or cars running big turbo's that run high cylinder pressures, the water won't compress and it takes up space of oxygen that you could burn. That's why I'd always prefer to run as big and as efficient intercooler setup I can before using water injection. Less things to fail and more consistent, especially if you ever rely on the W/I system to also deliver fuel (methanol/alky) to keep the motor alive. That's not to say W/I isn't going to work but it does have some down sides.

Speaking of a little bit how W/I works, it's 96°+ outside right now so it's finally time for me to climb up on the roof and clean out the swap cooler. :thumb:

Thats it....your doing my taxes next year.

[blackbird]

Go ahead an argue it to the governing bodies. :whiner: :lol:
We all know the truth, and like law, things can be interpreted differently.

[slow4dr]

I would argue that the methanol injected is in such small amounts as to not provide any significant increase in power directly, it is mainly used for its cooling properties.


To which they would reply "If it doesn't effect power directly, you won't miss it".


:jester:

[MChat]

The link provided earlier(http://www.aquamist.co.uk/info/documents/turbowhitepaper/waterinjection.htm) does a great job of explaining how water DOES effectively raise the octane rating.


Effect of water injection during compression and combustion:

By this time water has lodged itself between the air/fuel mixture although the percent of water to the mixture is only around 1%. Though the ratio is small the water further suppresses any remaining tendency of the fuel to pre-ignite by lodging itself between the air and fuel during compression. Before actual combustion occurs the water works against auto-ignition by continuing to absorb the heat generated during compression.

Water is a byproduct of combustion it is the chemical reaction of oxygen with the hydrogen freed from the hydrocarbon chains during combustion. How could the injection of additional present water before combustion contribute further to the combustion process? This is where it gets a bit complex and I will try to do the best I can. This pieces together various pieces of my understanding from different sources.

During early combustion when the fastest reactions occur the effect of the water in the mixture is to cause a more controlled and stable flame front. The freeing of hydrogen and carbon to combine with oxygen has to work around the present water to form OH radicals and CO. By slowing this early combustion process there is further suppression of the potential for the mixture to burn too fast and contribute to knock.

The italicized part shows that water does indeed make the mixture harder to ignite thereby effectively raising the octane.

For the bold part, the same thing could be said about Racing Fuels: "Racing Fuels cause a more controlled and stable flame front."

[punkrokdood]

To which I would say "If it doesn't effet power dircetly, remove it".


:jester:
rear wheels????? :yikes: :rofl:


so mike, what do you use/ reccommend for your meth inj?

[blackbird]

Thats it....your doing my taxes next year.
Taxes.
Taxes?
Should I be doing those? Oh wait, I had to pay in this year after already forking over $8k, but for some reason the state of Cali owed be money, but not enough to break even. Thanks for reminding me. :gcry:

Not enough to itemize and needed more write-off's. Maybe I should refinance the house at a higher interest rate so I can hopefully get a bigger refund. :lol:

[MChat]

I remember reading this on their site long ago. Lots of graphs and techno, mumbo-jumbo. :lol:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/info/documents/turbowhitepaper/waterinjection.htm

It does have some small effect on the speed of the flame front in the combustion process, but that's not its biggest benefit and how it works. You'll notice it mentioned about optimal amounts and small percentage of water injected. If you do run more water than needed, like is the case on many street cars, it does take up space of oxygen. You gain a little bit from the cooler charge helping density pre-combustion chamber, but on really high cylinder pressures it make a more significant difference. But that's another thing that has been argued for years.

You need to go back and read the link you posted :lol:

The cooling of the cylinder area surfaces permits additional air/fuel mixture to enter the cylinder thereby increasing volumetric efficiency. The combination of decreased liquids in the induction charge combined with the increased VE from in-cylinder cooling disproves the myth that water injection will displace air in the induction charge or reduce the amount of fuel that will be burned in combustion.

[punkrokdood]

You need to go back and read the link you posted :lol:
i thought that too at first, but he did specifically state "too much water" :thumb:

[MChat]

so mike, what do you use/ reccommend for your meth inj?

I used the Snow Performance setup, but most of the local guys have gone with the Devil's Own Water Injection. Both units have a progressive controller, which ramps up the water injection w/ the boost. (A better unit would also ramp up according to RPM). And both units have proven their worth on cars. The coolingmist system seems to be the most touchy as it is an on/off system.

I run a 50/50 mix of distilled water (from the grocery store) and methanol (from the track).

[MChat]

i thought that too at first, but he did specifically state "too much water" :thumb:

Yea, "Duh, if I inject too much water it could adversely effect performance" :lol:

Obviously I'm running pretty much dead on the amount of water injection my car needs. I switched from a smaller jet to a larger jet and picked up 15whp. :thumb:

[blackbird]

That's why I should have accented does because I was making a point that they're talking at extremely low levels of water injection, not like what most street cars pump in.

And I requote:
Effect of water injection during compression and combustion:

By this time water has lodged itself between the air/fuel mixture although the percent of water to the mixture is only around 1%. Though the ratio is small the water further suppresses any remaining tendency of the fuel to pre-ignite by lodging itself between the air and fuel during compression. Before actual combustion occurs the water works against auto-ignition by continuing to absorb the heat generated during compression.

Water is a byproduct of combustion it is the chemical reaction of oxygen with the hydrogen freed from the hydrocarbon chains during combustion. How could the injection of additional present water before combustion contribute further to the combustion process? This is where it gets a bit complex and I will try to do the best I can. This pieces together various pieces of my understanding from different sources.
^^^ BTW the article is hosted by ERL/Aquamist but isn't written by them. Give me a few minutes and I could come up with another one that counteracts this. :thumb: In seriousness it is a decent read though when taken in context of application.


Were you ever on the FMML or SDML? If any one knows what I'm talking about W/I was beaten to death at one point. This brings back fond memories. I'll have to see if I can dig up some archives from the late '90s. :jester:

[blackbird]

I see it was already addressed while I was writing my novella. Wait, that word is :supergay:. Correction; writing my mini-novel.

Anyways, to play devils advocate (and not the W/I company), how do you know that you're not injecting too much? Maybe you'd make more power running less W/A and using a higher octane fuel, providing cooler charge temps (more efficient compressor, better intercooler, etc.), or lowering exhaust back pressure on the exhaust/turbine side.

[MChat]

I see it was already addressed while I was writing my novella. Wait, that word is :supergay:. Correction; writing my mini-novel.

Anyways, to play devils advocate (and not the W/I company), how do you know that you're not injecting too much? Maybe you'd make more power running less W/A and using a higher octane fuel, providing cooler charge temps (more efficient compressor, better intercooler, etc.), or lowering exhaust back pressure on the exhaust/turbine side.


I used the formulas provided on another website to calculate how much water I should inject, then used a jet that matched it as close as possible. Actually the jet I used is a little bigger than the formula said is needed, and the next size down was a bit smaller than the formula indicated. I dyno'd with both of them, the larger jet got me ~490whp and the smaller jet was ~475whp. Is it possible that I could pick up 5-10whp more if I could find the "exact" jet? Possibly. But then I'm now increasing the amount of air and fuel w/ the new GT35, so the large jet is probably too small now. However I have no plans on going any bigger on the water injection jet, as it'll probably be about perfect for my street "pump gas" tune, and I'll be running race gas at the track.